1 00:00:09,650 --> 00:00:07,460 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:09,660 with author and past president of the 3 00:00:16,369 --> 00:00:11,910 International Association of near-death 4 00:00:19,970 --> 00:00:16,379 studies Nancy Evans Bush I think this is 5 00:00:22,580 --> 00:00:19,980 exactly the kind of talking about this 6 00:00:25,279 --> 00:00:22,590 stuff that we don't need to do what the 7 00:00:29,269 --> 00:00:25,289 heck could this possibly mean I think 8 00:00:33,020 --> 00:00:29,279 the most frustrating aspect of this 9 00:00:38,150 --> 00:00:33,030 whole study is simply trying to get 10 00:00:42,670 --> 00:00:38,160 people to sit quietly and just listen to 11 00:00:46,060 --> 00:00:42,680 the experiences let go of their 12 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:46,070 preconceptions for a few minutes and 13 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:51,390 just sit quietly and think huh what 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:00:55,440 could this mean what can we really say 15 00:01:01,990 --> 00:00:58,530 at the end of the day I mean we can say 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:02,000 that materialism is clearly a failed 17 00:01:06,679 --> 00:01:04,530 proposition and that to the extent that 18 00:01:09,980 --> 00:01:06,689 with it we're still mired in it we need 19 00:01:13,820 --> 00:01:09,990 to consider what lies beyond but I'm not 20 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:13,830 really sure what else we can say beyond 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:16,710 that for me one of the frustrations is 22 00:01:23,570 --> 00:01:20,130 the numbers of people who given a little 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:23,580 bit of information will jump in and say 24 00:01:28,969 --> 00:01:26,210 oh I get it I had one of these 25 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:28,979 experiences I can tell you what it means 26 00:01:34,910 --> 00:01:33,270 but I think we are still following bread 27 00:01:49,140 --> 00:01:34,920 crumbs through the woods 28 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:51,399 welcome to skeptical where we explore 29 00:01:55,330 --> 00:01:53,090 controversial science with leading 30 00:01:57,219 --> 00:01:55,340 researchers thinkers and their critics 31 00:01:58,690 --> 00:01:57,229 I'm your host Alex akira-san on this 32 00:02:02,050 --> 00:01:58,700 episode of skeptic oh we have an 33 00:02:06,130 --> 00:02:02,060 interview with Nancy Evans Bush about 34 00:02:08,469 --> 00:02:06,140 distressing negative hellish NDEs 35 00:02:10,090 --> 00:02:08,479 we really wind up talking about a lot of 36 00:02:13,540 --> 00:02:10,100 other topics that I think are 37 00:02:16,030 --> 00:02:13,550 particularly germane to the larger 38 00:02:18,729 --> 00:02:16,040 questions that Skeptical deals with it 39 00:02:22,509 --> 00:02:18,739 was a delight to talk to Nancy here's 40 00:02:25,630 --> 00:02:22,519 the interview today we welcome Nancy 41 00:02:27,610 --> 00:02:25,640 Evans Bush - skeptic Oh Nancy is the 42 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:27,620 former president of ions the 43 00:02:32,550 --> 00:02:29,840 International Association for near-death 44 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:32,560 studies and she's also the author of 45 00:02:39,340 --> 00:02:36,050 dancing past the dark distressing 46 00:02:40,990 --> 00:02:39,350 near-death experiences Nancy welcome and 47 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:41,000 thanks for joining me today on skeptic 48 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:45,290 oh thanks Alex so Nancy this is quite a 49 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:47,810 interesting fascinating book that you've 50 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:49,910 written I know that it's caused a little 51 00:02:55,390 --> 00:02:52,730 bit of a stir inside the near-death 52 00:02:58,420 --> 00:02:55,400 experience community and the scientific 53 00:03:00,430 --> 00:02:58,430 community in in in broader terms I've 54 00:03:02,050 --> 00:03:00,440 heard about this book it's kind of 55 00:03:04,060 --> 00:03:02,060 popped up and people bringing it to my 56 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:04,070 attention from a number of people so 57 00:03:09,940 --> 00:03:06,290 first of all you have to congratulate 58 00:03:12,699 --> 00:03:09,950 someone on that you've obviously struck 59 00:03:15,490 --> 00:03:12,709 a nerve with this book tell us a little 60 00:03:18,569 --> 00:03:15,500 bit about why you sought to write it and 61 00:03:24,789 --> 00:03:18,579 what you were hoping to do with the book 62 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:24,799 when I was in my late 20s I had an 63 00:03:35,740 --> 00:03:28,910 experience during the birth of my second 64 00:03:38,740 --> 00:03:35,750 baby and it was an experience I I could 65 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:38,750 not account for I could not explain I 66 00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:42,890 could not understand uh because 67 00:03:52,150 --> 00:03:47,769 essentially it was this was years before 68 00:04:00,240 --> 00:03:52,160 near-death experiences were known 69 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:00,250 bound and I had I had no context before 70 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:03,530 understanding what it was or how to make 71 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:06,710 sense of it it did not fit with my 72 00:04:15,430 --> 00:04:11,330 theological life it did not fit with 73 00:04:18,449 --> 00:04:15,440 anything and because it was an 74 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:18,459 experience essentially of being 75 00:04:28,210 --> 00:04:24,170 annihilated um there was there was no 76 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:28,220 place to put it so I buried it if I can 77 00:04:32,590 --> 00:04:30,080 just interject when you say you were 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:32,600 annihilated there were these little 79 00:04:37,150 --> 00:04:35,450 beings you encountered in this deep dark 80 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:37,160 void as part of your near-death 81 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:39,770 experience and as I understand it your 82 00:04:44,650 --> 00:04:42,410 near-death experience starts out as many 83 00:04:46,630 --> 00:04:44,660 near-death experiences start you left 84 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:46,640 your body you were in the hospital you 85 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:48,770 flew out of the hospital and then 86 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:51,590 suddenly you were sucked into this void 87 00:04:59,320 --> 00:04:55,090 and you encountered these beings who 88 00:05:02,230 --> 00:04:59,330 laughingly told you you're nothing your 89 00:05:05,260 --> 00:05:02,240 life is nothing your baby is nothing 90 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:05,270 this is all just a joke that you're 91 00:05:10,030 --> 00:05:08,330 playing on yourself fill me in on what 92 00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:10,040 I'm missing about that story but that's 93 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:11,830 essentially it 94 00:05:22,810 --> 00:05:17,510 that's essentially and the entities were 95 00:05:25,660 --> 00:05:22,820 circles onion baby now I would say they 96 00:05:28,210 --> 00:05:25,670 were the yin-yang symbol this because 97 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:28,220 that's what they looked like at the time 98 00:05:37,270 --> 00:05:33,080 I had I did not know I did not recognize 99 00:05:42,310 --> 00:05:37,280 them if I had recognized them I would 100 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:42,320 have had no way of interpreting them can 101 00:05:46,450 --> 00:05:44,630 I ask you because in reading through the 102 00:05:49,570 --> 00:05:46,460 book and some other other interviews 103 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:49,580 you've done what kept playing on my mind 104 00:05:56,470 --> 00:05:52,450 is what do you think about those 105 00:06:00,540 --> 00:05:56,480 entities or the that encounter now in 106 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:00,550 terms of its religious or cultural 107 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:03,080 context what does that mean that these 108 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:06,110 were from another culture in 109 00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:09,050 particular a Buddhist or a Taoist 110 00:06:12,670 --> 00:06:10,640 culture what do you make of that today 111 00:06:16,780 --> 00:06:12,680 now in 2012 112 00:06:22,150 --> 00:06:16,790 I'm Marvel I have not the foggiest 113 00:06:27,610 --> 00:06:22,160 notion how a Taoist temple would get 114 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:27,620 into the experience of an uninformed New 115 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:32,330 England Congregationalist but on the 116 00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:36,230 other hand I don't know how religious 117 00:06:45,010 --> 00:06:41,030 symbols of any tradition cross into 118 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:45,020 other traditions you know I have to say 119 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:47,330 when I was reading your book I was kind 120 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:49,490 of going through the what's the big deal 121 00:06:54,630 --> 00:06:51,710 here other than your personal experience 122 00:06:57,550 --> 00:06:54,640 which I understand is is huge you know 123 00:06:59,530 --> 00:06:57,560 incredibly significant for you but I 124 00:07:00,790 --> 00:06:59,540 kind of felt like aren't we past this I 125 00:07:02,890 --> 00:07:00,800 mean we know that there's these 126 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:02,900 distressing near-death experiences and 127 00:07:07,690 --> 00:07:04,730 they've kind of happened before but then 128 00:07:10,450 --> 00:07:07,700 one quote I think did stick out to me 129 00:07:14,110 --> 00:07:10,460 where I felt like maybe I get a sense 130 00:07:16,030 --> 00:07:14,120 for where she's pushing against or what 131 00:07:20,850 --> 00:07:16,040 some of the frustration is it's a quote 132 00:07:23,790 --> 00:07:20,860 from Ken ring in 1994 he said 133 00:07:27,250 --> 00:07:23,800 frightening NDEs are themselves 134 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:27,260 illusionary phantasmagoria thrown up by 135 00:07:33,460 --> 00:07:29,930 the ego in response to the threat of its 136 00:07:36,010 --> 00:07:33,470 own seeming imminent annihilation oh my 137 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:36,020 gosh what a bunch of gobbly [\h__\h] but 138 00:07:41,740 --> 00:07:38,330 tell me what you think I think maybe 139 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:41,750 that's true but if it's true a 140 00:07:47,100 --> 00:07:44,810 distressing experience is why wouldn't 141 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:47,110 it be equally true of the blissful 142 00:07:55,870 --> 00:07:51,190 experience in another place another 143 00:08:02,140 --> 00:07:55,880 context he has called these drug 144 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:02,150 reactions well women in childbirth under 145 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:06,760 the same circumstances have radiant 146 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:11,260 experiences blissful wonderful fabulous 147 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:16,360 experiences and he never said they were 148 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:19,770 just phantasmagoria 149 00:08:26,750 --> 00:08:23,280 so I think if it's true in one set of 150 00:08:31,130 --> 00:08:26,760 circumstances why not the other back 151 00:08:35,630 --> 00:08:31,140 when I first started with the research 152 00:08:38,210 --> 00:08:35,640 on all of this everybody was looking at 153 00:08:41,140 --> 00:08:38,220 the great end experience it's pretty 154 00:08:44,810 --> 00:08:41,150 much everybody still does because 155 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:44,820 they're the ones that we like to think 156 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:49,260 about these are much more difficult but 157 00:08:55,490 --> 00:08:52,110 it doesn't mean they're without meaning 158 00:09:00,830 --> 00:08:55,500 and it doesn't mean they are without 159 00:09:05,180 --> 00:09:00,840 huge significance particularly if you 160 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:05,190 look at this in the social context of 161 00:09:13,510 --> 00:09:08,850 the numbers the countless numbers of 162 00:09:18,260 --> 00:09:13,520 people who are out there absolutely 163 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:18,270 terrified of the idea that they may go 164 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:20,820 to hell those are the people I am 165 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:23,730 writing for right so that's kind of an 166 00:09:28,550 --> 00:09:25,950 interesting point and an interesting 167 00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:28,560 perspective in that you're kind of 168 00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:31,680 calling out this glorification of the 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:33,470 near-death experience positive 170 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:37,290 experiences that doesn't allow these the 171 00:09:41,390 --> 00:09:39,570 full range of these experiences to come 172 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:41,400 through and what you're what you're 173 00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:44,460 pointing out is how devastating that can 174 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:47,100 be to someone who's had a distressing 175 00:09:53,810 --> 00:09:50,040 near-death experience and yet not only 176 00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:53,820 are they being rejected and having a 177 00:09:58,370 --> 00:09:56,310 hard time getting through to people from 178 00:10:00,620 --> 00:09:58,380 a materialistic background maybe their 179 00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:00,630 doctors or other people in their life 180 00:10:04,580 --> 00:10:02,640 but then they encounter people in the 181 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:04,590 near-death experience community there's 182 00:10:08,870 --> 00:10:07,410 they're also shunned maybe by this idea 183 00:10:12,830 --> 00:10:08,880 that oh well you must have done 184 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:12,840 something wrong or or it's not really 185 00:10:15,890 --> 00:10:13,530 like that 186 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:15,900 so it is that partly what you are 187 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:21,050 getting at I guess yes in no way to 188 00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:25,890 discount the wonderfulness of the 189 00:10:33,049 --> 00:10:30,470 blissful experiences but simply to say 190 00:10:38,629 --> 00:10:33,059 there are other claims 191 00:10:43,009 --> 00:10:38,639 experience also and if we don't talk 192 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:43,019 about them then how is anyone to know 193 00:10:50,019 --> 00:10:46,769 how to respond if they have one it's 194 00:10:55,849 --> 00:10:50,029 like in Tibetan Book of the Dead which 195 00:10:58,429 --> 00:10:55,859 essentially is um a manual Oh what to 196 00:11:01,129 --> 00:10:58,439 expect when you're dying and maybe some 197 00:11:05,359 --> 00:11:01,139 of it will be pleasant and some of it 198 00:11:09,859 --> 00:11:05,369 probably won't be and hey get this into 199 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:09,869 your subconscious now so that when you 200 00:11:17,539 --> 00:11:12,689 encounter it you will know how to 201 00:11:23,449 --> 00:11:17,549 respond and we just we send ourselves 202 00:11:27,889 --> 00:11:23,459 out into the experience of dying or 203 00:11:30,379 --> 00:11:27,899 near-death or whatever but in a way that 204 00:11:31,189 --> 00:11:30,389 we wouldn't send boyscouts into the 205 00:11:33,109 --> 00:11:31,199 woods 206 00:11:36,199 --> 00:11:33,119 we weren't them at least they have 207 00:11:39,169 --> 00:11:36,209 accomplice I'm just trying to provide 208 00:11:40,879 --> 00:11:39,179 the compass okay but but there's there's 209 00:11:44,179 --> 00:11:40,889 a problem there too because on one hand 210 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:44,189 I understand the need to talk about it 211 00:11:48,469 --> 00:11:45,929 the need to put it on the table and 212 00:11:50,149 --> 00:11:48,479 process it but I don't think that's the 213 00:11:52,099 --> 00:11:50,159 only thing that you're objecting to 214 00:11:54,109 --> 00:11:52,109 because I think you're also objecting 215 00:11:56,569 --> 00:11:54,119 well I'm going to test this out this 216 00:11:58,519 --> 00:11:56,579 theory of mine but the way that we talk 217 00:12:00,679 --> 00:11:58,529 about it and I'm objecting to the way 218 00:12:02,899 --> 00:12:00,689 that we talk about it as well I want to 219 00:12:05,539 --> 00:12:02,909 read for you another quote that maybe 220 00:12:07,939 --> 00:12:05,549 will tee off this other little pathway 221 00:12:10,749 --> 00:12:07,949 we're going to go down and it's from of 222 00:12:12,649 --> 00:12:10,759 course you know dr. Barbara Romer who 223 00:12:14,329 --> 00:12:12,659 investigated these distressing 224 00:12:17,359 --> 00:12:14,339 near-death experiences and near-death 225 00:12:20,299 --> 00:12:17,369 experience researcher and she came to 226 00:12:23,169 --> 00:12:20,309 this conclusion let me read her quote it 227 00:12:26,149 --> 00:12:23,179 appears that disavowing the reality or 228 00:12:30,969 --> 00:12:26,159 possibility of the existence of a higher 229 00:12:35,089 --> 00:12:30,979 power may contribute to the why of these 230 00:12:38,329 --> 00:12:35,099 distressing near-death experiences 19.4% 231 00:12:41,539 --> 00:12:38,339 of my study group labeled themselves as 232 00:12:46,129 --> 00:12:41,549 atheist or agnostic prior to their 233 00:12:46,910 --> 00:12:46,139 experience I think this is exactly the 234 00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:46,920 kind of 235 00:12:51,769 --> 00:12:49,470 talking about this stuff that we don't 236 00:12:55,489 --> 00:12:51,779 need to do what the heck could this 237 00:12:57,859 --> 00:12:55,499 possibly mean Nate I like the the 19.4 238 00:13:03,829 --> 00:12:57,869 it's not nineteen it's not twenty it's 239 00:13:09,909 --> 00:13:03,839 nineteen point four Oh Alex what there 240 00:13:13,789 --> 00:13:09,919 is so much on every side of this issue 241 00:13:19,059 --> 00:13:13,799 we are surrounded by people whose knees 242 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:19,069 are jerking there are automatic 243 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:24,649 responses that people make the convicted 244 00:13:31,579 --> 00:13:28,410 atheists say oh it's just these people 245 00:13:36,099 --> 00:13:31,589 are deluding themselves with the 246 00:13:39,669 --> 00:13:36,109 supernatural and the convinced 247 00:13:43,189 --> 00:13:39,679 metaphysicians of who our bomber was one 248 00:13:46,989 --> 00:13:43,199 says oh if only they believed done it 249 00:13:49,729 --> 00:13:46,999 would be different and the the 250 00:13:52,669 --> 00:13:49,739 doctrinally religious a well that they 251 00:13:57,470 --> 00:13:52,679 just believed the right stuffs and that 252 00:14:01,249 --> 00:13:57,480 would take care of this and i think the 253 00:14:06,139 --> 00:14:01,259 most frustrating aspect of his whole 254 00:14:10,780 --> 00:14:06,149 study is simply trying to get people to 255 00:14:14,259 --> 00:14:10,790 sit quietly and just listen to be 256 00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:14,269 experiences let go of their 257 00:14:22,999 --> 00:14:17,660 preconceptions for a few minutes and 258 00:14:26,239 --> 00:14:23,009 just sit quietly and think huh what 259 00:14:28,549 --> 00:14:26,249 could this mean yeah it makes perfect 260 00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:28,559 sense to me and there's a there's a fine 261 00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:30,360 line there because i think we all 262 00:14:36,679 --> 00:14:34,169 appreciate one that were embedded in 263 00:14:39,439 --> 00:14:36,689 this materialistic culture who 264 00:14:41,989 --> 00:14:39,449 constantly repeats back to us that this 265 00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:41,999 is impossible this is ridiculous 266 00:14:46,549 --> 00:14:44,160 right you're you're crazy so I think 267 00:14:50,479 --> 00:14:46,559 when people break through that then 268 00:14:52,429 --> 00:14:50,489 there's a certain need to go just as far 269 00:14:54,439 --> 00:14:52,439 as they can with this and I can 270 00:14:58,039 --> 00:14:54,449 appreciate that because it also serves 271 00:14:59,359 --> 00:14:58,049 this deep need that we have to answer 272 00:15:00,770 --> 00:14:59,369 these questions and we all want to 273 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:00,780 answer them so it's kind of hard to 274 00:15:06,980 --> 00:15:04,530 pull in the reins but to an extent it 275 00:15:09,470 --> 00:15:06,990 leaves us with what can we really say at 276 00:15:12,940 --> 00:15:09,480 the end of the day I mean we can say 277 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:12,950 that materialism is clearly a failed 278 00:15:17,630 --> 00:15:15,450 proposition and that to the extent that 279 00:15:20,930 --> 00:15:17,640 with it were still mired in it we need 280 00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:20,940 to consider what lies beyond but I'm not 281 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:24,750 really sure what else we can say beyond 282 00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:28,410 that how do we how do we venture forth 283 00:15:37,010 --> 00:15:31,980 into this great territory of what lies 284 00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:37,020 beyond how do we get there I think I 285 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:44,460 have the answers yes I think you do well 286 00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:48,030 in the one of my favorite quotes from 287 00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:51,150 Bruce Grayson when somebody asked him 288 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:54,240 something similar you know so what does 289 00:15:59,080 --> 00:15:55,080 it mean 290 00:16:03,020 --> 00:15:59,090 and Bruce looked thoughtful and said as 291 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:03,030 the preeminent researcher in this field 292 00:16:10,370 --> 00:16:05,250 for 30-some years 293 00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:10,380 and Bruce and huh beats me and that's 294 00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:15,060 that I think I think there is no single 295 00:16:23,270 --> 00:16:19,500 answer I think for me one of the 296 00:16:26,450 --> 00:16:23,280 frustrations as you've just said and 297 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:26,460 you're asking a great question 298 00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:29,310 but for me one of the frustrations is 299 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:33,240 the numbers of people who given a little 300 00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:36,570 bit of information will jump in and say 301 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:39,180 oh I get it I had one of these 302 00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:42,290 experiences I can tell you what it means 303 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:47,160 but I think we are still following bread 304 00:16:53,060 --> 00:16:50,370 crumbs through the woods I think we are 305 00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:53,070 too but I have to say I'm equally 306 00:16:59,240 --> 00:16:56,160 frustrated with Bruce's answer as well 307 00:17:01,310 --> 00:16:59,250 which you also hear from the near-death 308 00:17:03,770 --> 00:17:01,320 experience researchers particularly ones 309 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:03,780 like Bruce are fully embedded in our 310 00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:05,610 academic community and they have a 311 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:06,990 certain role to play there and I 312 00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:08,310 understand that and that's to say that I 313 00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:09,839 know and I don't know why he says that 314 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:11,910 maybe he really maybe really means it 315 00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:14,490 beats me but to me that that's 316 00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:17,160 certain bit of a cop out in that I think 317 00:17:23,929 --> 00:17:20,160 we're driven to follow those breadcrumbs 318 00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:23,939 and to broaden our perspective beyond 319 00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:26,280 near-death experience I think you allude 320 00:17:29,530 --> 00:17:27,750 to this a couple times in the book and 321 00:17:31,910 --> 00:17:29,540 it's interesting in the little bit of 322 00:17:35,090 --> 00:17:31,920 pre-interview conversation we had I told 323 00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:35,100 you I wanted to bring up dr. Rick 324 00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:37,320 Strassman in the DMV spirit molecule 325 00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:38,990 thing because I think the whole 326 00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:41,150 psychedelics is a whole other 327 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:44,640 interesting aspect to this other kind of 328 00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:46,290 experience but there's all sorts of 329 00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:48,840 these transformative experiences but 330 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:50,340 then I think when we look at them across 331 00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:52,890 the board we might not be able to come 332 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:55,200 to these concrete answers but I think we 333 00:17:59,150 --> 00:17:57,090 can do a little bit better than beats me 334 00:18:04,910 --> 00:17:59,160 I think there is a pattern here that's 335 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:04,920 emerging oh yeah yeah I have to say Alex 336 00:18:12,110 --> 00:18:08,130 if anybody has been following 337 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:12,120 breadcrumbs for three decades its Proust 338 00:18:20,510 --> 00:18:16,410 Grayson who has both built a foundation 339 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:20,520 and has broadened the expanse of what 340 00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:23,910 we're looking at when he says beats me 341 00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:26,960 it doesn't mean we don't know anything 342 00:18:34,790 --> 00:18:31,440 it means we don't have ultimate answers 343 00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:34,800 a lot of folks out there would like to 344 00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:38,700 say oh we understand this we need all 345 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:41,910 the disciplines in this we can get to 346 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:45,410 join us because this can't be just 347 00:18:53,410 --> 00:18:49,250 near-death experiences it's it's 348 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:53,420 biochemistry it's it's the mythology 349 00:18:59,780 --> 00:18:56,330 mythological information it's 350 00:19:03,260 --> 00:18:59,790 transpersonal psychology it sociology 351 00:19:06,620 --> 00:19:03,270 it's anthropology it's all of them 352 00:19:10,130 --> 00:19:06,630 because that's how big the implications 353 00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:10,140 are I'm sorry I interrupted air and 354 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:13,830 money defense of Bruce and you going on 355 00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:17,730 to a question about deity no no fair 356 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:19,980 enough and I'm glad you you straightened 357 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:22,290 that out and and that's great so please 358 00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:25,500 continue on with a little bit of that 359 00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:27,360 kind of cross fertilization that we can 360 00:19:31,060 --> 00:19:28,320 get into and 361 00:19:34,129 --> 00:19:31,070 and that's to talk about DMT or 362 00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:34,139 psychedelic experience in general and 363 00:19:39,499 --> 00:19:37,470 how that might inform our understanding 364 00:19:40,909 --> 00:19:39,509 of near-death experience you know one of 365 00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:40,919 the things I've found really interesting 366 00:19:46,210 --> 00:19:43,679 and talking to Strassmann is that the 367 00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:46,220 surprise finding for him was 368 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:47,750 freestanding 369 00:19:58,810 --> 00:19:52,610 entities if you will some time back 370 00:20:02,200 --> 00:19:58,820 through several years I was working some 371 00:20:05,889 --> 00:20:02,210 studying some mindfulness meditation 372 00:20:12,129 --> 00:20:05,899 with the American Buddhist teacher 373 00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:12,139 Shinzon young and he tells this Turkey 374 00:20:23,169 --> 00:20:17,820 as you get into advanced meditation you 375 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:23,179 may begin to encounter these creaturely 376 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:26,610 entities and they can be quite 377 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:29,570 frightening they seem to be absolutely 378 00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:36,210 real and some of them are insectoid he 379 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:40,700 tells the story of himself and 380 00:20:48,610 --> 00:20:44,450 countering in a deep meditation once 381 00:20:54,110 --> 00:20:48,620 encountering things like 6 foot tall 382 00:20:57,230 --> 00:20:54,120 grasshoppers and he says you know don't 383 00:20:59,930 --> 00:20:57,240 worry just don't worry you're not going 384 00:21:04,669 --> 00:20:59,940 crazy you're not being assailed by 385 00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:04,679 demons this is simply your subconscious 386 00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:09,990 just divesting itself of some imagery 387 00:21:17,629 --> 00:21:13,950 the thing that made strassman stop his 388 00:21:20,649 --> 00:21:17,639 experiment was because that's precisely 389 00:21:26,269 --> 00:21:20,659 the kind of encounter that some of his 390 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:26,279 study participants were having right you 391 00:21:29,539 --> 00:21:26,610 know 392 00:21:33,019 --> 00:21:29,549 Sen John Young is a very interesting guy 393 00:21:36,159 --> 00:21:33,029 he's been a guest on this show I have to 394 00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:36,169 say I find I find that answer 395 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:39,750 unsatisfying he may be right he may be 396 00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:41,650 completely right 397 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:44,590 it I don't know where that gets us I 398 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:46,810 look at it from this world from this 399 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:49,810 reality which may not be a reality at 400 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:52,510 all I'll accept that going in but I say 401 00:22:02,010 --> 00:21:57,730 why would these cross-cultural cross 402 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:02,020 time entities appear in all these 403 00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:04,840 different situations exactly as they are 404 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:07,660 freestanding free-formed interacting 405 00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:09,790 with these individuals to say okay don't 406 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:13,030 worry go past it if you're talking about 407 00:22:19,740 --> 00:22:16,930 how to kind of practical means to 408 00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:19,750 advance your meditation fine but I'm 409 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:22,300 curious to stop there and say wait a 410 00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:24,970 minute what does that mean in terms of 411 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:26,620 how I'm supposed to understand this 412 00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:32,650 reality and what a very good question if 413 00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:36,460 you would I do not have a very good 414 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:41,190 answer because I think would I rather 415 00:22:49,470 --> 00:22:45,010 think of these I mean if I'm going in in 416 00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:49,480 this world levels deal with all of these 417 00:22:59,870 --> 00:22:53,320 ideas and things would I rather think of 418 00:23:04,190 --> 00:22:59,880 these as actual physical entities or as 419 00:23:08,310 --> 00:23:04,200 images from the imaginal realms 420 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:08,320 now experientially I think it doesn't 421 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:10,330 make one bit of difference whether 422 00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:13,410 they're physically real or 423 00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:16,480 experientially real if they feel real at 424 00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:20,320 that level they are real and what does 425 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:26,740 that mean I'm back to the Bruce Grayson 426 00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:29,890 kind of answered that says well I don't 427 00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:34,270 really know what it means in ultimate 428 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:36,760 terms but by golly that sure is 429 00:23:41,250 --> 00:23:37,810 interesting 430 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:41,260 Yeah right well you know and maybe that 431 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:43,210 moves us into the last area that I 432 00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:45,730 wanted to talk about I another former 433 00:23:51,090 --> 00:23:47,820 guest on this show when someone you 434 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:51,100 reference in the book is PMH Atwater of 435 00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:52,500 course a near-death experience 436 00:23:57,330 --> 00:23:55,000 researcher long time then at it 437 00:23:59,460 --> 00:23:57,340 many books and one of the things that 438 00:24:01,050 --> 00:23:59,470 Atwater said in our interview that I 439 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:01,060 thought really she made an excellent 440 00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:04,690 point on is really looking at the long 441 00:24:08,130 --> 00:24:06,820 term effects and she's the first one 442 00:24:10,770 --> 00:24:08,140 that I know of 443 00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:10,780 who's really said here's something we 444 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:12,790 have to really put on the table and the 445 00:24:15,450 --> 00:24:14,050 same way they're chalk that you're 446 00:24:17,610 --> 00:24:15,460 talking about putting distressing 447 00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:17,620 near-death experiences on the table and 448 00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:20,200 that is that the aftermath of these 449 00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:22,900 near-death experiences isn't so neat and 450 00:24:28,860 --> 00:24:26,440 rosy like we'd like to think it is and 451 00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:28,870 people are challenged by these 452 00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:31,180 experiences and challenged mightily and 453 00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:34,000 they go through some real challenging 454 00:24:37,830 --> 00:24:36,100 times in terms of integrating this into 455 00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:37,840 their into their life experience and 456 00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:41,830 she's absolutely right so much of what 457 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:45,460 people like to think about when they 458 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:49,570 think about spirituality is a kind of 459 00:25:00,180 --> 00:24:54,250 Thomas Kinkade spirituality it's all 460 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:00,190 going to be so sweet it's just it's 461 00:25:06,410 --> 00:25:03,390 going to be cozy it's going to be 462 00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:06,420 supportive it's going to be just 463 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:11,470 wonderful and in plain fact the st. Paul 464 00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:15,250 was not far wrong when he said it is a 465 00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:18,760 fearful thing to fall into the hands of 466 00:25:25,290 --> 00:25:20,700 the Living God 467 00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:25,300 because yes it can be glorious it can be 468 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:29,040 comforting it can it can be wonderful 469 00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:33,370 things it's not always going to be 470 00:25:38,190 --> 00:25:34,030 pretty 471 00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:38,200 it may be glorious but glorious comes at 472 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:40,950 a price too and the price is very 473 00:25:49,950 --> 00:25:46,930 frequently that you wake up after your 474 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:49,960 radiant experience and you have just 475 00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:54,130 been to with people you dearly loved who 476 00:25:59,850 --> 00:25:56,680 had died you had been in the presence of 477 00:26:03,270 --> 00:25:59,860 whatever it is you consider most holy 478 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:03,280 you have been in the presence of peace 479 00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:07,210 an ultimate home and you've wake up and 480 00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:08,680 you're lying on the 481 00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:13,150 the pavement and it's still old Tuesday 482 00:26:19,950 --> 00:26:16,620 and your understanding has been 483 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:19,960 transformed but it hasn't let's put it 484 00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:20,650 this way 485 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:24,310 there is a psychotherapist now out there 486 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:26,290 in California 487 00:26:34,980 --> 00:26:29,170 you understand I'd say now out there 488 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:34,990 from coastal North Carolina is the true 489 00:26:42,410 --> 00:26:38,970 Eastern Earth there until exactly 490 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:42,420 Alix Luke 'land who is quoted and 491 00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,000 considerable length in in the book has 492 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:48,900 talked about near death and similar 493 00:26:57,180 --> 00:26:52,750 experiences as being and I'm going to 494 00:27:00,510 --> 00:26:57,190 quote him the destruction of traditional 495 00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:00,520 and habitual patterns of perception and 496 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:05,200 understanding including religious belief 497 00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:08,610 structures and socially accepted 498 00:27:15,810 --> 00:27:11,830 concepts of the nature of human 499 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:15,820 existence and behavior now get that that 500 00:27:24,930 --> 00:27:20,050 means your conception of everything has 501 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:24,940 just been blown sky-high Nancy since you 502 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:27,010 touched on it I want to bring up how you 503 00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:30,430 have resolved this or whether or not you 504 00:27:35,370 --> 00:27:33,640 have resolved it with your traditional 505 00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:35,380 Christian upbringing 506 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:39,760 oh no Calvin was right predestination it 507 00:27:46,650 --> 00:27:43,890 which is the idea that God has decided 508 00:27:47,460 --> 00:27:46,660 beforehand who will be saved and who 509 00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:47,470 will not 510 00:27:54,150 --> 00:27:51,310 and I obviously coming out of this 511 00:27:59,940 --> 00:27:54,160 experience I was not on the right side 512 00:28:05,090 --> 00:27:59,950 of God so that explains why I am no 513 00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:05,100 longer in accountant be a lot too close 514 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:09,400 because I just I was incapable of 515 00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:13,810 accepting a God who would do that but 516 00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:15,070 for really going to be honest are there 517 00:28:21,090 --> 00:28:18,790 some deeper doctrinal problems with 518 00:28:22,109 --> 00:28:21,100 Christianity and that's not to say that 519 00:28:24,569 --> 00:28:22,119 as 520 00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:24,579 you suggested earlier there aren't 521 00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:26,799 breadcrumbs there aren't morsels that 522 00:28:32,459 --> 00:28:29,169 may turn out to be deep spiritual truths 523 00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:32,469 I totally accept that but I think in the 524 00:28:38,399 --> 00:28:35,289 way that it's constituted and the way 525 00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:38,409 that it's presented at least down at the 526 00:28:42,629 --> 00:28:40,569 church that I go to that I can't join 527 00:28:45,089 --> 00:28:42,639 because I'm not a Christian I can't 528 00:28:47,489 --> 00:28:45,099 stand up there and say the Apostles 529 00:28:50,129 --> 00:28:47,499 Creed and say that I believe any of 530 00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:50,139 these things but I accept the 531 00:28:55,499 --> 00:28:52,799 possibility that there is Christ 532 00:28:58,169 --> 00:28:55,509 consciousness that I might be able to 533 00:29:01,949 --> 00:28:58,179 interact with that Christ consciousness 534 00:29:05,809 --> 00:29:01,959 but I'm really at a loss for resolving 535 00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:05,819 that with modern American Western 536 00:29:13,999 --> 00:29:09,549 Christianity who claims a primacy a 537 00:29:16,619 --> 00:29:14,009 superiority or or even even historical 538 00:29:18,179 --> 00:29:16,629 significance in terms of the 539 00:29:20,189 --> 00:29:18,189 Resurrection or anything like I think 540 00:29:23,069 --> 00:29:20,199 all that stuff just doesn't make any 541 00:29:27,299 --> 00:29:23,079 sense in this context I hear you loud 542 00:29:31,409 --> 00:29:27,309 and clear as I look I see more and more 543 00:29:35,069 --> 00:29:31,419 people walking out of the theological 544 00:29:38,879 --> 00:29:35,079 woods saying exactly those things it's 545 00:29:46,879 --> 00:29:38,889 an interesting and extremely challenging 546 00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:46,889 time to be him to be trying to make it 547 00:29:54,659 --> 00:29:50,049 successfully and in the great majority 548 00:29:59,489 --> 00:29:54,669 of Christian churches because there is 549 00:30:04,919 --> 00:29:59,499 this tension between Orthodox doctrine 550 00:30:10,409 --> 00:30:04,929 Orthodox wording and what some of us 551 00:30:14,069 --> 00:30:10,419 look at and say this just does not begin 552 00:30:19,349 --> 00:30:14,079 to do it but on the other hand you've 553 00:30:23,729 --> 00:30:19,359 got increasing numbers of evangelicals 554 00:30:26,909 --> 00:30:23,739 is saying I don't think I can do this 555 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:26,919 anymore this is not fitting this does 556 00:30:33,089 --> 00:30:29,769 not feel right this is not the gun I 557 00:30:35,550 --> 00:30:33,099 want to worship or I can't worship or I 558 00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:35,560 can believe 559 00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:39,270 and then as you move into the more open 560 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:44,110 structures you begin to find people 561 00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:47,170 saying you know it's not about doctrine 562 00:30:54,030 --> 00:30:50,950 it's about how are you living your life 563 00:30:56,580 --> 00:30:54,040 how are you interacting with creation 564 00:31:00,840 --> 00:30:56,590 you know it's amazing to me that many 565 00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:00,850 folks still don't see the way out that 566 00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:02,320 you're painting and I always point 567 00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,270 people to and again I'm not a Christian 568 00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:06,480 but I'm really drawn to people like 569 00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:10,630 Brian McLaren yeah a new kind of 570 00:31:13,950 --> 00:31:12,310 Christianity and just a couple things 571 00:31:15,470 --> 00:31:13,960 where he says you know how do you look 572 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:15,480 at the Bible do you look at as an 573 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:18,610 encyclopedia beginning to end that tells 574 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:20,710 us everything we know or a library where 575 00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:23,170 we can go and pull bits and pieces out 576 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:24,790 and use them however we will and the 577 00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:26,370 other thing I think that's part of that 578 00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:29,740 progressive Christianity that again I 579 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:32,200 can't say I'm a part of but I see it 580 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:34,770 heading in a direction that is certainly 581 00:31:40,110 --> 00:31:37,090 encouraging and that's to say that we 582 00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:40,120 have to fully embrace fully embrace our 583 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:43,390 other religions or other traditions not 584 00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:46,210 in a way of yeah you can be here too but 585 00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:49,780 in a way of yes your your your just is 586 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:52,630 true or maybe more true than me so great 587 00:32:02,370 --> 00:31:55,690 let's let's all join in this thing it's 588 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:02,380 kind of like being in a chorus and The 589 00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:05,800 Sopranos aren't Altos and the Altos 590 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:08,980 aren't tenders who aren't baritones but 591 00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:13,090 without all the voices you don't have 592 00:32:18,380 --> 00:32:14,830 the finished product 593 00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:18,390 I'm immense oh well I used to be in 594 00:32:25,530 --> 00:32:21,580 today they were the only ones who really 595 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:25,540 had the right voices well how impossibly 596 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:31,210 narrow yes and how impossibly crippling 597 00:32:41,390 --> 00:32:36,070 I'm equally distressed for and by the 598 00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:41,400 militant atheists whose anger at 599 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:46,180 religion is so extreme that it is 600 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:48,850 paralyzing there 601 00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:52,330 their intellectual functioning you know 602 00:32:55,710 --> 00:32:53,830 but the interesting thing about that and 603 00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:55,720 took me a long time to realize they're 604 00:33:02,640 --> 00:32:58,960 like the bullies who are really 605 00:33:04,830 --> 00:33:02,650 protecting the upstanding citizens that 606 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:04,840 allow the bullies to patrol the 607 00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:06,310 neighborhood because it really kind of 608 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:08,920 works to their advantage and I think the 609 00:33:13,410 --> 00:33:11,110 scientific community is standing right 610 00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:13,420 behind on the sidelines and seeing the 611 00:33:18,690 --> 00:33:16,630 the Atheist bullcrap that goes on and it 612 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:18,700 totally it's only serves as cover for 613 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:21,850 them because materialism but at the end 614 00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:24,310 of materialism is the end of atheism it 615 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:26,710 just gets because it doesn't go away it 616 00:33:30,450 --> 00:33:29,050 just gets so marginalized and put over 617 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:30,460 there on the corner they become the Flat 618 00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:32,770 Earth Society but as long as science 619 00:33:37,290 --> 00:33:34,750 continues to prop them up and say oh 620 00:33:39,210 --> 00:33:37,300 yeah there's still some validity there 621 00:33:42,980 --> 00:33:39,220 and that's what really ferments the 622 00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:42,990 whole thing for years I have been so 623 00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:46,720 fascinated by the fact that if you look 624 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:49,870 way over to the left or way over to the 625 00:33:57,150 --> 00:33:53,590 right you see people saying the same 626 00:34:00,960 --> 00:33:57,160 things about near-death experiences for 627 00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:00,970 example the scientists say well nobody 628 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:03,460 can fly through this kind they can't be 629 00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:06,130 seeing their bodies that's not true 630 00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,830 and over at the other end the guys are 631 00:34:13,260 --> 00:34:10,480 saying well that can't be true that's 632 00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:13,270 just not doctrinal well in there there 633 00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:15,250 also I think the deeper thing that I've 634 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:17,950 found or my opinion is that what they're 635 00:34:24,210 --> 00:34:22,240 both doing is defending the status quo I 636 00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:24,220 mean there first of all just defending 637 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:26,110 their their existing beliefs because 638 00:34:29,970 --> 00:34:27,580 it's painful for any of us to change our 639 00:34:32,970 --> 00:34:29,980 beliefs but the consequence is they're 640 00:34:36,060 --> 00:34:32,980 defending the status quo and that's why 641 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:36,070 they get fed that's why we keep feeding 642 00:34:39,720 --> 00:34:38,890 them because we need the status quo to 643 00:34:43,740 --> 00:34:39,730 go on 644 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:43,750 we need the culture of materialism needs 645 00:34:48,990 --> 00:34:46,570 to support the science philosophy of 646 00:34:51,870 --> 00:34:49,000 materialism or the whole thing coming 647 00:34:55,740 --> 00:34:51,880 yeah it's to a halt so do you see a way 648 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:55,750 past no I don't I mean not in any short 649 00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:57,970 term I mean one of the the frustrations 650 00:35:02,579 --> 00:35:00,160 I have is when people talk about the 651 00:35:05,339 --> 00:35:02,589 paradigm shift that's eminent 652 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:05,349 and all that it's like you know go tell 653 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:07,410 William James about the eminent 654 00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:12,930 paradigms yeah it's that sentimental 655 00:35:21,089 --> 00:35:16,960 passionate desire for things to be nice 656 00:35:24,450 --> 00:35:21,099 right and we'll just we'll just have 657 00:35:27,930 --> 00:35:24,460 this evolution of consciousness and then 658 00:35:30,569 --> 00:35:27,940 the Golden Age will be here and let's 659 00:35:33,180 --> 00:35:30,579 see it's Tuesday if we do this right it 660 00:35:35,479 --> 00:35:33,190 should be here by the end of the year 661 00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:35,489 you know Nancy that's a very interesting 662 00:35:40,259 --> 00:35:38,049 parallel to what you're talking about 663 00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:40,269 with the distressing near-death 664 00:35:45,749 --> 00:35:43,599 experiences and that we have to let in 665 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:45,759 if not fully embrace maybe we have to 666 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:47,440 fully embrace the dark but we have to at 667 00:35:51,779 --> 00:35:49,690 least let it into the conversation and 668 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:51,789 they pretend it's not there yep you've 669 00:35:58,559 --> 00:35:56,650 got absolutely on target yes Nancy it's 670 00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,569 been just to delight talking to you 671 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:00,640 again the book for those who are 672 00:36:05,279 --> 00:36:02,710 interested in finding out more about 673 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:05,289 these miss distressing near-death 674 00:36:12,299 --> 00:36:08,890 experiences and understanding the whole 675 00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:12,309 near-death experience phenomena and the 676 00:36:15,180 --> 00:36:13,839 history of the research from someone 677 00:36:17,579 --> 00:36:15,190 who's been at it for a very long time 678 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:17,589 and had a very unique perspective in 679 00:36:22,709 --> 00:36:19,690 seeing it all evolve you have to check 680 00:36:25,229 --> 00:36:22,719 out dancing past the dark distressing 681 00:36:28,170 --> 00:36:25,239 near-death experiences Nancy thanks 682 00:36:30,809 --> 00:36:28,180 again for joining me Alex thank you so 683 00:36:32,489 --> 00:36:30,819 much thanks again to Nancy Evans Bush 684 00:36:34,769 --> 00:36:32,499 for joining me today on skeptic oh 685 00:36:37,019 --> 00:36:34,779 there's a couple of questions that I'd 686 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:37,029 like to tee up for discussion from this 687 00:36:42,209 --> 00:36:39,249 interview and they both center around 688 00:36:44,969 --> 00:36:42,219 this idea of how do we approach the 689 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:44,979 paranormal how do we deal with topics 690 00:36:51,059 --> 00:36:47,650 that mainstream science is telling us 691 00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:51,069 are impossible or at least certainly not 692 00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:53,920 proven and yet we know from looking at 693 00:36:58,229 --> 00:36:55,839 the evidence are very very well 694 00:37:00,059 --> 00:36:58,239 established so how do we work in this 695 00:37:03,059 --> 00:37:00,069 space where we have this force on one 696 00:37:05,309 --> 00:37:03,069 side that's telling us no no no this is 697 00:37:07,170 --> 00:37:05,319 not happening so how do we avoid going 698 00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:07,180 too far to the other extreme and saying 699 00:37:13,950 --> 00:37:11,440 no not only is it true and real but it's 700 00:37:16,170 --> 00:37:13,960 all true and it's all real how do we 701 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:16,180 keep that filter at just the 702 00:37:21,210 --> 00:37:18,970 level and that go too far beyond the 703 00:37:22,980 --> 00:37:21,220 data if you will and I guess the second 704 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:22,990 question has to do with applying that 705 00:37:29,970 --> 00:37:26,010 principle to these questions of 706 00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:29,980 distressing NDEs what can we say about 707 00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:33,040 these monovalent forces whether you 708 00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:34,990 think they're spiritual or whether you 709 00:37:39,930 --> 00:37:37,390 think they're demonic or wherever I 710 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:39,940 think we have to go there to some extent 711 00:37:44,819 --> 00:37:42,010 we have to at least explore that 712 00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:44,829 territory and find out if there is any 713 00:37:51,569 --> 00:37:49,300 there there so the second question I'd 714 00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:51,579 like to tee up for you is how do we 715 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:55,240 process this evil factor into the 716 00:37:58,859 --> 00:37:57,250 equation so I'd love to hear what you 717 00:38:03,059 --> 00:37:58,869 think comment right there on the 718 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:03,069 skeptical website at ske PTI ke o comm 719 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:05,170 join the forum let us know what you 720 00:38:09,569 --> 00:38:06,910 think there send me an email however you 721 00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:09,579 do it love to hear from you hey while 722 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:11,260 you're at the website please check out 723 00:38:16,799 --> 00:38:14,050 all of our other shows over 175 and 724 00:38:18,450 --> 00:38:16,809 Counting plenty more coming tell your 725 00:38:20,309 --> 00:38:18,460 friends about skeptical let's get other 726 00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:20,319 people involved spread the word as much 727 00:38:25,950 --> 00:38:23,200 as you think is appropriate and I guess